Aký je význam “úmrtia?”

This posting arises from comments made by Erik Hallendorf in response to the article, ‘Zomrel Ježiš naozaj?‘ Pre úplnosť, I’ll begin with his original post…

Erik Hallendorff

Zoberme si biblické výpovede a bežné kresťanské výklady správ o Ježišovej smrti ako o danom. These include that Jesus’ body was horribly mutilated and died a relatively quick death.

Smrťou máme na mysli, že neexistuje mozgová aktivita a žiadne srdcové funkcie.

Zoberme si tiež príbeh zmŕtvychvstania ako daný, t. potom bol opäť nažive 3 dni, ktorý má na bokoch iba značky piercingu, nohy a ruky, ale úplne sa zotavil z hrozných rán. Pretože mŕtve telo nemôže mať žiadne liečivé schopnosti, musíme vziať do úvahy, že sa Ježiš znovu objavil v novom tele alebo v zázračne uzdravenom tele, okrem niektorých značiek presvedčiť pochybujúcich.
Vo svetle vyššie uvedených akceptovaných kresťanských názorov na Ježiša, rád by som sa spýtal: V akom zmysle Ježiš skutočne zomrel?

Dovoľte mi zmeniť uvedenú definíciu smrti úplne rozumným spôsobom:

Smrťou máme na mysli, že neexistuje trvalá mozgová činnosť a žiadne srdcové funkcie. Inými slovami, najzákladnejšie chápanie smrti je to, že predstavuje trvalý koniec života. Jesus “death” does not satisfy this understanding of death simply because there is no permanence. Christian doctrine is at pains to prove that his “death” was only temporary, a pritom, poskytuje odpoveď na otázku, Ježiš skutočne zomrel? Očividne to neurobil.

Nemusíme sa hádať o tom, či jednoducho omdlel alebo omdlel, alebo či sa jeho srdce a mozog skutočne zastavili, či už bol klinicky mŕtvy alebo nie 3 dni. To všetko sa stáva irelevantným.

Je toho veľa z konečnej Ježišovej obete. Kedy nebol vôbec konečný. Najmä preto, že už vopred vedel, že bude preč 3 dni. He knew before he “died” he would be “undead” in the blink of an eye.

Tu je to, na čo sa scvrkáva. Keby ste mi ponúkli obchod, ktorý mi umožní navždy zaistiť svetový mier, a všetko, čo musím urobiť, je popravené (naozaj), zostať mŕtvy pre 3 dni, a potom nejakým zázračným mechanizmom, čo je pre mňa zaručené, Vrátil by som sa žiť bez akýchkoľvek následkov z mojej popravy, Bezpochyby by som to prijal. Žiadna obeta na spanie iba cez jeden víkend, zvlášť ak sa navždy po mojom veľkom spánku dáva každému dlhý víkend, aby som si spomenul na moju veľkú obetu.

Spodná čiara: In what way does Jesus “death” satisfy the basic definition of a permanent ceasing of life? Najdôležitejšou kresťanskou doktrínou je podľa jej vlastných slov aj jej najväčší konk. Bolo by pravdivejšie povedať: "Potom, čo utrpel strašné mučenie na časť dňa.", Ježiš zomrel spravodlivo 3 dní za vaše hriechy, ale potom sa znova stal nemŕtvym, ako vedel, že chce, úplne uzdravený, s výnimkou niektorých značiek, ktoré ukazujú, že bol mučený. Obetoval sa 3 dní života pre vás. Teraz mu musíte dať celý život. “.

admin hovorí:

Ahoj, erik!

Ďakujeme za vaše pripomienky. Poznamenávam, že sa zdajú byť celkom ochotné pripustiť hlavný bod týkajúci sa historickosti Ježišových evanjeliových záznamov’ smrť a vzkriesenie. Váš názor je však veľmi zaujímavý, na ktorý tu veľmi stručne odpoviem: ale myslím si, že si zaslúži oveľa plnšiu diskusiu inde. Ak nemáte námietky, Chcel by som vašu správu reprodukovať a ponúknuť úplnejšiu odpoveď inde na tejto stránke vo veľmi blízkej budúcnosti. budem, samozrejme, keď tak urobím, pošlem ti odkaz.

V liste, ak raz prijmete predpoklad, že smrť a predstavuje trvalý koniec života’ potom váš argument dáva zmysel. Naozaj, keby to bola pravda nielen ja, ale každý kresťan, ktorý kedy žil, je, slovami sv. Paul, ‘Najviac byť zastrelený’ (1 Corinthians 15:19). Jedným zo základných kresťanských učení je, že tomu tak nie je.

Sú tu však oveľa väčšie problémy. Ak smrť nie je trvalý koniec života, čo je to? A aká bola skutočná podstata a účel Ježiša’ utrpenie? Chcel by som o tom hovoriť podrobnejšie neskôr.

Erik Hallendorff

Zdravím a ďakujem za vašu odpoveď. Som rád, že ste sa nepokúsili o rýchlu odpoveď, pretože táto otázka skutočne vyžaduje odmeranú odpoveď a som pre vás viac než šťastný, že túto otázku môžete prijať aj inde.. Predstavuje hádanku, nie je to tak?

Z kresťanského hľadiska, Smrť znamená trvalý koniec života na Zemi a súčasný začiatok posmrtného života, alebo, nový život v inej podobe.

– Ježišova smrť nebola trvalým životom na zemi … tak čo bolo jeho “úmrtia” potom?

– Ježiš vedel, že to bude “nemŕtvy” po 3 dni, čo to robí s konceptom “konečná obeta”. A v akom zmysle je vôbec nejaká obeť, keď vedel, že po vzostupe bude úplne zišli so svojím otcom v nebi., tentokrát bez bremena ľudskej formy?

– Medzi evanjelistami som si všimol tendenciu vykresliť Ježiša’ utrpenie veľmi graficky, kde je zrejmé, že sú motivovaní potrebou ukázať Ježišovi’ fyzické utrpenie bolo omnoho väčšie, ako kedy predtým zažil ktorýkoľvek človek a ktorý by v budúcnosti prežil každý človek. Je to skutočne kľúčová požiadavka? Ak nie, tak prečo toľko utrpieť? Ak áno, potom by sa zdalo ťažké zálohovať sa tvárou v tvár dôkazu o oveľa extrémnejšom individuálnom utrpení v priebehu vekov dlhší čas v rukách sadistických mučiteľov., diktátori, vojnoví štváči, genocidné maniaky, choroby atď.

Toto sú kritické otázky, pretože kresťanstvo sa týka utrpenia, Smrť a vzkriesenie sú základnými kameňmi viery, bez ktorých nie je vôbec nič pozoruhodné.

Chcel by som zdôrazniť, že na odpovede na tieto otázky nemám nijaký záujem; Zaujíma ma iba úplnosť predložených argumentov.

My response:

Apologies for the delay responding: but I’ve been working to a deadline on a job and only just finished… But I felt it necessary to try and present an overview of the issue to avoid getting bogged down in details.

The issue I think we need to address first is what Christians believe about life and death: and I’d better start by pointing out that there were 2 differing viewpoints amongst the Jews of Jesus’ deň. The Sadducees, whilst believing in God, did not believe in life after death: whereas the Pharisees believed both in a spiritual world beyond our normal perceptions and that man would somehow enter that realm when their current mortal life ended. tak, even in Jesus’ deň, many were in doubt about this subject. ale, despite his disagreement with the Pharisees on many other issues, Ježiš (and his disciples) always came down firmly on their side in this respect (c.f. Mt 22:23-32 & Acts 23:6-9).

The question of what life after death is like is a complex one, on which Christians do not necessarily entirely agree. But it is much easier to establish a few basic facts about death. Let us start with the very first biblical reference to human death – the story of Adam and Eve. Jesus himself cited this account when arguing the biblical case against divorce (Mt 19:3-8); so we know he took it very seriously. God had warned Adam, ‘… in the day you eat of [the forbidden fruit] you will surely die’ (Gen 2:17). Now Adam did not die physically until many, many years later: yet something very important urobil happen immediately: he was barred from the Garden of Eden and the ‘Tree of Life,’ to which he formerly had free access. So the death that Adam suffered was first and foremost relational – cut off from the presence and life of God. Physical death and decay was an eventual by-product.

Aj dnes, people do not normally immediately cease to exist when they die. The entire body and organs remain, and may be medically resuscitated before too much decay has occurred. But at death communication with the corpse ceases and our previous relationship with the person is abruptly ended.

tak, what I am saying is that, if you want to understand what is really meant by death and resurrection in Biblical terminology, you need to start thinking more in terms of communication and relationships than modern clinical definitions. This perspective is critical to a full understanding of the significance of Jesus’ ukrižovanie.

The primary problem Jesus came to address was the alienation of man from God. This had resulted in a number of secondary problems:

• Loss of understanding about the character of God

• Loss of understanding about our own place and purpose in the Universe,

• Moral degradation. (Every child is now born in a corrupted environment which begins making its impressions on their character before they even know it.) The most serious aspect of this is pride and self-centredness (the very opposite of love).

• Guilt and shame arising from hurts which we have (with varying degrees of intent) inflicted on others.

• Disease, decay and, v konečnom dôsledku, physical death.

• Doubt and fear about what might await us after death.

As you examine the ministry of Jesus, you will see how he addresses himself to all of the above issues in people’s lives; claiming to be able to provide, not just a philosophical bandage, but an actual cure.

But there was a secondary problem: spravodlivosti. And it wasn’t simply an issue of God having been wronged by man’s rebellion. That was an issue too: since mankind had openly rebelled against God in spite of His warnings about the consequences. So if He just said, ‘Forget the consequences,’ that would make Him a liar. But there were also two other groups involved in this. Mankind was one of them. People who have been hurt by others often demand retribution or recompense: and God, who is the moral source of all justice, will not simply ignore that claim.

But the third party is a claimant far more subtle and far less open to doing deals. Man is not the only sentient being with powers of choice. Satan, one of the most powerful of these (though puny in comparison to God) had demanded independence and been expelled from God’s presence in a fall far greater than that of Adam. It was he who had sown mistrust in the minds of Adam and Eve. His goal was simple: to establish a legal claim to the human race and the world they had been given to control; taking the human race hostage to secure a place for himself.

Now the old adage says, ‘Justice must not only be done: musí sa vidieť, že sa to robí.’ To Satan, it seemed he had God over a barrel, morally speaking. God had given man authority over the entire planet. But by obeying Satan’s suggestions, skôr ako Boží, man had unwittingly but voluntarily made himself Satan’s servant: so now Satan, not man, was the legal master of earth and all its inhabitants (c.f. Lk 4:5-7).

One further point: your understanding of God, the Universe, eternity and Jesus himself are far too small. We will see why this is so important shortly.

Teraz, as to your specific questions…

Ježišova smrť nebola trvalým životom na zemi … tak čo bolo jeho “úmrtia” potom?

Ježiš’ death and resurrection was both a demonstration and a sacrificial gift far greater than we can ever properly conceive.

• By physically resurrecting the dead body of Jesus, it showed us that there is life on the other side of death.

• It demonstrates that Jesus, uniquely amongst all the world’s religious leaders, was who he claimed to be, knew exactly what he was talking about and had the ultimate power to put his words into effect.

• It demonstrates the astonishing love of God; that he would do this for those who were, predsa, self-centred rebels against His law, with no right to expect anything from Him.

• It established a mechanism that was capable of anulling the legal claim that Satan had established over the human race.

• It paid a price greater than the sum total of all and every claim for justice and recompence for mankind’s wrongdoings that ever has or ever could be laid against us.

I think that the first 3 points are fairly self-explanatory: but now let me enlarge upon the last in relation to your other 2 otázky:

Ježiš vedel, že to bude “nemŕtvy” po 3 dni, čo to robí s konceptom “konečná obeta”. ...

a …

I have noted a tendency among evangelists … kde je zrejmé, že sú motivovaní potrebou ukázať Ježišovi’ physical suffering was far greater than … any human before and … in future. Je to skutočne kľúčová požiadavka?

Áno, it is. As the Apostle John puts it, “It is he who is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, a nielen pre nás, but also for the whole world’s.” (1 Jn 2:2) Most of us are familiar with the old adage, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ If anyone is to pay for the sin of the whole world, then it must mean that their suffering must be greater than the sum total of every single case of the most ‘extreme individual suffering over the ages for extended periods of time at the hands of sadistic torturers, diktátori, vojnoví štváči, genocidné maniaky, choroby atď.‘

And that ‘sum total’ is not just massive beyond our ability to conceive. It is potentially infinite: because the effect of our rebellion was to leave us permanently separated from God and hostage to Satan.

I have heard some pretty graphic sermons and watched Mel Gibson’s ‘The Passion of the Christ.’ It’s brutal and gut-wrenching: but in terms of what Jesus actually had to endure it’s not even remotely close. If I could produce a film to attempt to convey what was involved, I think I would start with scenes slowly and graphically displaying the kind of scenes you describe, then gradually accelerate into a rushing kaleidoscope of seemingly never-ending horrors, perhaps ending with that ear-splitting scream of ‘My God, Bože môj, prečo si ma opustil?’ But nothing could ever come close to the reality of that billions-multiplied mass of agony – particularly as we could only watch it, whereas Jesus had to actually cítiť it all.

How could this be? If Jesus were just a man, it couldn’t. But Jesus claimed to be God. The apostle John describes him as the One through whom all of creation came into being (Jn 1:1-3 & 14). Opinions may differ as to how much sentience and capacity for pain a fish, or a worm or microbe may have: but most would accept that the greater and more complex the mind, the greater its probable capacity for suffering. How great, potom, is that of the One who is bigger than the Universe and inhabits eternity? A, whereas you and I can only empathise with another’s pain as, having no direct connection to their mind, we cannot actually feel it; Bože, who knows our thoughts better than we know ourselves, can and does feel it. (I’ve discussed this at more length in a posting I made on ‘The Connectedness of God’ at http://tbl.liegeman.org/the-connectedness-of-god (now hosted tu on this site).)

ale, given that God is the infinite and eternal creator of all things, how could such vast suffering – even though, from our limited, temporal perspective, it seems to have been only for a finite period of our time – not be a full and sufficient settlement for all the debts we owe?