What is the meaning of “muerte?”

This posting arises from comments made by Erik Hallendorf in response to the article, ‘Qué Jesús realmente Die?‘ For the sake of completeness, I’ll begin with his original post…

erik hallendorf

Tomemos los relatos bíblicos y las interpretaciones cristianas comunes de los relatos de la muerte de Jesús como algo dado.. These include that Jesus’ body was horribly mutilated and died a relatively quick death.

Por muerte queremos decir que no hay actividad cerebral ni función cardíaca..

Tomemos también la historia de la resurrección como algo dado, es decir. estaba vivo de nuevo después 3 dias, teniendo solo las marcas de los piercings en sus costados, pies y manos, pero completamente recuperado de las horribles heridas. Dado que un cuerpo muerto no puede tener ninguna capacidad de curación, debemos asumir que Jesús reapareció en un cuerpo nuevo o un cuerpo curado milagrosamente, excepto por algunas marcas para convencer a los escépticos.
A la luz de las anteriores creencias cristianas aceptadas acerca de Jesús, Me gustaría preguntar: ¿En qué sentido Jesús realmente murió??

Permítanme modificar la definición anterior de muerte de una manera completamente razonable.:

Por muerte queremos decir que no hay actividad cerebral ni función cardíaca como un estado permanente.. En otras palabras, la comprensión más básica de la muerte es que representa el fin permanente de la vida. Jesus “death” does not satisfy this understanding of death simply because there is no permanence. Christian doctrine is at pains to prove that his “death” was only temporary, y al hacerlo, da la respuesta a la pregunta, ¿Jesús realmente murió?? Claramente no lo hizo.

No necesitamos discutir si simplemente se desmayó o se desmayó., o si su corazón y cerebro realmente se detuvieron, si estaba clínicamente muerto o no por 3 dias. Todo eso se vuelve irrelevante..

Tanto se habla del último sacrificio de Jesús. Cuando no fue definitivo en absoluto. Especialmente porque sabía de antemano que solo se iría por 3 dias. He knew before he “died” he would be “undead” in the blink of an eye.

Esto es lo que se reduce a. Si me ofrecieran un trato que me permita asegurar la paz mundial para siempre, y todo lo que tengo que hacer es ser ejecutado (verdadero), permanecer muerto por 3 dias, y luego por algún mecanismo milagroso, que me está garantizado, volvería a vivir sin secuelas de mi ejecución, Lo aceptaría sin dudarlo.. No hay sacrificio en absoluto para dormir solo un fin de semana., especialmente si siempre después de mi gran sueño se da a todos como un largo fin de semana para recordar mi gran no sacrificio.

Línea de fondo: In what way does Jesus “death” satisfy the basic definition of a permanent ceasing of life? Según sus propios relatos, la doctrina cristiana más importante es también su mayor inconveniente.. Sería más cierto decir: “Después de sufrir horribles torturas durante parte de un día, Jesús murió solo por 3 dias por tus pecados, pero luego se convirtió en no-muerto de nuevo, ya que sabía que lo haría, completamente curado excepto por algunas marcas que muestran que fue torturado. el sacrificó 3 dias de su vida para ti. Ahora tienes que dar toda tu vida por él”.

administración says:

Hola, erik!

Gracias por tus comentarios. Observo que parece bastante dispuesto a conceder el punto principal sobre la historicidad de los relatos evangélicos de Jesús.’ muerte y resurrección. Pero su punto es muy interesante al que responderé muy brevemente aquí.: pero que creo que merece una discusión mucho más completa en otro lugar. Si no te opones, Me gustaría reproducir su mensaje y ofrecer una respuesta más completa en otro lugar de este sitio en un futuro muy cercano.. lo haré, por supuesto, te envio un link cuando lo haga.

En breve, si una vez aceptas la premisa de que la muerte "representa un final permanente para la vida’ entonces tu argumento tiene sentido. En efecto, si fuera verdad no solo yo, pero todo cristiano que ha vivido alguna vez es, en palabras de san. Pablo, 'lo más digno de lástima’ (1 Corinthians 15:19). Pero una de las enseñanzas cristianas fundamentales es que este no es el caso..

Pero hay problemas mucho más grandes aquí.. Si la muerte no es el fin permanente de la vida, ¿qué es?? ¿Y cuál era la verdadera naturaleza y propósito de Jesús’ sufrimiento? Me gustaría discutir esto con más detalle más adelante..

erik hallendorf

Saludos y gracias por tu respuesta. Me alegro de que no haya intentado una respuesta rápida ya que, de hecho, la pregunta requiere una respuesta mesurada y estoy más que feliz de que retome la pregunta en otro lugar.. Representa un enigma, ¿no es así??

En términos cristianos, la muerte significa el final permanente de la vida en la tierra y el comienzo simultáneo de una vida después de la muerte, o, una nueva vida en una forma diferente.

– La muerte de Jesús no fue el fin permanente de la vida en la tierra … Entonces, ¿cuál fue su “muerte” entonces?

– Jesús sabía que sería “muertos vivientes” después 3 dias, Entonces, ¿qué le hace eso al concepto de “el ultimo sacrificio”. ¿Y en qué sentido hay algún sacrificio cuando sabía que se reuniría completamente con su padre en el cielo después de la ascensión?, esta vez sin la carga de una forma humana?

– He notado una tendencia entre los evangelistas a retratar a Jesús’ sufrimiento en términos muy gráficos, donde se hace evidente que están motivados por la necesidad de mostrar a Jesús’ El sufrimiento físico fue mucho mayor que el que jamás había experimentado ningún ser humano antes y que experimentará cualquier ser humano en el futuro.. ¿Es este realmente un requisito fundamental? Si no, Entonces, ¿por qué darle tanta importancia a su sufrimiento?? En caso afirmativo, entonces parecería difícil retroceder frente a la evidencia de un sufrimiento individual mucho más extremo a lo largo de las edades durante períodos prolongados de tiempo a manos de torturadores sádicos, dictadores, belicistas, maníacos genocidas, enfermedades, etc..

Estas son preguntas críticas porque el cristianismo considera el Sufrimiento, La muerte y la resurrección como piedras angulares de su fe, sin el cual no hay nada destacable en absoluto.

Debo señalar que no tengo un interés personal en las respuestas a estas preguntas de ninguna manera.; Simplemente estoy interesado en la integridad de cualquier argumento presentado.

My response:

Apologies for the delay responding: but I’ve been working to a deadline on a job and only just finished… But I felt it necessary to try and present an overview of the issue to avoid getting bogged down in details.

The issue I think we need to address first is what Christians believe about life and death: and I’d better start by pointing out that there were 2 differing viewpoints amongst the Jews of Jesus’ día. The Sadducees, whilst believing in God, did not believe in life after death: whereas the Pharisees believed both in a spiritual world beyond our normal perceptions and that man would somehow enter that realm when their current mortal life ended. Asi que, even in Jesus’ día, many were in doubt about this subject. Pero, despite his disagreement with the Pharisees on many other issues, Jesús (and his disciples) always came down firmly on their side in this respect (c.f. Mt 22:23-32 & Acts 23:6-9).

The question of what life after death is like is a complex one, on which Christians do not necessarily entirely agree. But it is much easier to establish a few basic facts about death. Let us start with the very first biblical reference to human death – the story of Adam and Eve. Jesus himself cited this account when arguing the biblical case against divorce (Mt 19:3-8); so we know he took it very seriously. God had warned Adam, ‘… in the day you eat of [the forbidden fruit] you will surely die’ (Gen 2:17). Now Adam did not die physically until many, many years later: yet something very important did happen immediately: he was barred from the Garden of Eden and the ‘Tree of Life,’ to which he formerly had free access. So the death that Adam suffered was first and foremost relational – cut off from the presence and life of God. Physical death and decay was an eventual by-product.

Even today, people do not normally immediately cease to exist when they die. The entire body and organs remain, and may be medically resuscitated before too much decay has occurred. But at death communication with the corpse ceases and our previous relationship with the person is abruptly ended.

Asi que, what I am saying is that, if you want to understand what is really meant by death and resurrection in Biblical terminology, you need to start thinking more in terms of communication and relationships than modern clinical definitions. This perspective is critical to a full understanding of the significance of Jesus’ crucifixion.

The primary problem Jesus came to address was the alienation of man from God. This had resulted in a number of secondary problems:

• Loss of understanding about the character of God

• Loss of understanding about our own place and purpose in the Universe,

• Moral degradation. (Every child is now born in a corrupted environment which begins making its impressions on their character before they even know it.) The most serious aspect of this is pride and self-centredness (the very opposite of love).

• Guilt and shame arising from hurts which we have (with varying degrees of intent) inflicted on others.

• Disease, decay and, ultimately, physical death.

• Doubt and fear about what might await us after death.

As you examine the ministry of Jesus, you will see how he addresses himself to all of the above issues in people’s lives; claiming to be able to provide, not just a philosophical bandage, but an actual cure.

But there was a secondary problem: justice. And it wasn’t simply an issue of God having been wronged by man’s rebellion. That was an issue too: since mankind had openly rebelled against God in spite of His warnings about the consequences. So if He just said, ‘Forget the consequences,’ that would make Him a liar. But there were also two other groups involved in this. Mankind was one of them. People who have been hurt by others often demand retribution or recompense: and God, who is the moral source of all justice, will not simply ignore that claim.

But the third party is a claimant far more subtle and far less open to doing deals. Man is not the only sentient being with powers of choice. Satan, one of the most powerful of these (though puny in comparison to God) had demanded independence and been expelled from God’s presence in a fall far greater than that of Adam. It was he who had sown mistrust in the minds of Adam and Eve. His goal was simple: to establish a legal claim to the human race and the world they had been given to control; taking the human race hostage to secure a place for himself.

Now the old adage says, ‘Justice must not only be done: it must be seen to be done.’ To Satan, it seemed he had God over a barrel, morally speaking. God had given man authority over the entire planet. But by obeying Satan’s suggestions, rather than God’s, man had unwittingly but voluntarily made himself Satan’s servant: so now Satan, not man, was the legal master of earth and all its inhabitants (c.f. Lk 4:5-7).

One further point: your understanding of God, the Universe, eternity and Jesus himself are far too small. We will see why this is so important shortly.

Ahora, as to your specific questions…

La muerte de Jesús no fue el fin permanente de la vida en la tierra … Entonces, ¿cuál fue su “muerte” entonces?

Jesús’ death and resurrection was both a demonstration and a sacrificial gift far greater than we can ever properly conceive.

• By physically resurrecting the dead body of Jesus, it showed us that there is life on the other side of death.

• It demonstrates that Jesus, uniquely amongst all the world’s religious leaders, was who he claimed to be, knew exactly what he was talking about and had the ultimate power to put his words into effect.

• It demonstrates the astonishing love of God; that he would do this for those who were, after all, self-centred rebels against His law, with no right to expect anything from Him.

• It established a mechanism that was capable of anulling the legal claim that Satan had established over the human race.

• It paid a price greater than the sum total of all and every claim for justice and recompence for mankind’s wrongdoings that ever has or ever could be laid against us.

I think that the first 3 points are fairly self-explanatory: but now let me enlarge upon the last in relation to your other 2 questions:

Jesús sabía que sería “muertos vivientes” después 3 dias, Entonces, ¿qué le hace eso al concepto de “el ultimo sacrificio”. ...

y …

I have noted a tendency among evangelists … donde se hace evidente que están motivados por la necesidad de mostrar a Jesús’ physical suffering was far greater than … any human before and … in future. ¿Es este realmente un requisito fundamental?

sí, it is. As the Apostle John puts it, “It is he who is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, y no solo para los nuestros, but also for the whole world’s.” (1 Jn 2:2) Most of us are familiar with the old adage, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ If anyone is to pay for the sin of the whole world, then it must mean that their suffering must be greater than the sum total of every single case of the most ‘extreme individual suffering over the ages for extended periods of time at the hands of sadistic torturers, dictadores, belicistas, maníacos genocidas, enfermedades, etc..‘

And that ‘sum total’ is not just massive beyond our ability to conceive. It is potentially infinite: because the effect of our rebellion was to leave us permanently separated from God and hostage to Satan.

I have heard some pretty graphic sermons and watched Mel Gibson’s ‘The Passion of the Christ.’ It’s brutal and gut-wrenching: but in terms of what Jesus actually had to endure it’s not even remotely close. If I could produce a film to attempt to convey what was involved, I think I would start with scenes slowly and graphically displaying the kind of scenes you describe, then gradually accelerate into a rushing kaleidoscope of seemingly never-ending horrors, perhaps ending with that ear-splitting scream of ‘My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?’ But nothing could ever come close to the reality of that billions-multiplied mass of agony – particularly as we could only watch it, whereas Jesus had to actually feel it all.

How could this be? If Jesus were just a man, it couldn’t. But Jesus claimed to be God. The apostle John describes him as the One through whom all of creation came into being (Jn 1:1-3 & 14). Opinions may differ as to how much sentience and capacity for pain a fish, or a worm or microbe may have: but most would accept that the greater and more complex the mind, the greater its probable capacity for suffering. How great, entonces, is that of the One who is bigger than the Universe and inhabits eternity? Y, whereas you and I can only empathise with another’s pain as, having no direct connection to their mind, we cannot actually feel it; Dios, who knows our thoughts better than we know ourselves, can and does feel it. (I’ve discussed this at more length in a posting I made on ‘The Connectedness of God’ at http://tbl.liegeman.org/the-connectedness-of-god (now hosted here on this site).)

Pero, given that God is the infinite and eternal creator of all things, how could such vast suffering – even though, from our limited, temporal perspective, it seems to have been only for a finite period of our time – not be a full and sufficient settlement for all the debts we owe?